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Talk:Garen/@comment-25280994-20150218161108
Hey everyone, let me know what you think of these changes I've spent a little while pondering! I'd love constructive feedback and new ideas. Keep in mind that no numbers are set in stone and can be altered for balance purposes :) If i get some positive feedback on this, I may write a rework up on here. Changes to Garen Q: · Visually like Jayce or Aatrox. He jumps high into the air and lands on a spot of terrain. This is for the initiation he needs. Not targeted to provide counter play. · Functionally like Xerath’s W. A wide area of reduced damage with a smaller area in the middle with a slow and increased damage. This is to provide his kit with a small amount of CC, something he desperately needs. Outside area-no slow. Inside area-30%. · Cooldown increased fairly heavily, maybe up to 12 seconds at max rank, to solidify the important of buying CDR on the resource less champion. At current cooldown, CDR makes little difference in either form. The speed-up function is mostly to blame, as the actual time between you press the button and the time you can press it again is lengthened by about 4 seconds longer than the cooldown states. A 5.6 second cooldown at max rank and CDR translates to almost 10 seconds between activation and re-activation. For a champion as cooldown reliant as Garen, this creates a large gap between points of usefulness. Judgement also applies this, but to a lesser extent. His cooldowns are longer than the numbers would suggest. By removing the speed up portion and making it one single motion, you can both increase the cooldown and the number of times it can be used. · Remove the speed up portion of the ability because it is now at a longer range. . W: · Can stay the same. It might be better to give him a shield instead of passively decreasing damage dealt to him, if only to make it feel more impactful. As it is now, the impact of the ability feels minimal despite it being rather strong. E: Mostly fine as is. · The cooldown should be lowered by about 1 second at all ranks. · If not, increase it by 1 second but make it go on cooldown upon activation, not upon finishing it. · Garen has a very poor auto-attack animation, making him dependent on abilities even with high AD. Having his primary damage spell reduced in cooldown would help his damage significantly · Perhaps lower the damage but deal, say, 2% of the enemies missing health at max rank each tick of damage. The ability is titled “judgement” after all, it should feel like he is sentencing an enemy or otherwise dealing a finishing blow. Making it more effective at lower health would fit with his theme better R: · The execute function of this seems like a bit out of line with his kit and design as a champion. Garen can do quite a bit of damage, but he’s also designed to be very tanky. His role as a champion, to take a lot of damage and deal a decent amount of enemy carries, is in conflict with this ability, as your team doesn’t want the tanks to get the kills. Having an executing ultimate goes against this. Perhaps keep the design of the ultimate the same in that it just deals a load of damage, but switch the health modifier to be based on Current health, making it a much better initiating ability. A similar change occurred with Evelynn’s ultimate a few seasons ago, 3 if i remember correctly. Overview: · Garen is a champion that excels at both taking damage and dealing large amounts early in the game. He is both a lane bully and powerful damage sponge in the late game thanks to the passive of his W ability. This is a fairly rare combination, and is very powerful. However, due to his lack of initiation and CC, he is easily kited, making him next to useless offensively in team fights. · Moreover, his kit doesn’t fit together well. His ultimate is an ability designed to get him kills and snowball a lead, which works well in lane, but in teamfights it takes kills away from other champions on his team that would deal more damage and need gold more, actually making his ultimate damaging to his team. · By giving his Q the ability to gap close and provide some CC, two of his major weaknesses are shored up and he gains a massive boost in power. Changing his E to provide damage based on missing health fits in line with the theme of the ability, and changing his Ultimate to deal current health would make it more useful in team fights later. · As a 12 second cooldown at max rank, Garen’s ability to spam his initiation would be limited. Comparing Garen’s hypothetical Q with other, current forms of initiation amongst top laners shows that such a cooldown, even with full CDR, would be well in line and not too strong. · Of course, a high damage, high utility and highly tanky champion with good initiation and mostly targeted abilities would be overpowered. Without counter-play, Garen would become OP. His E has counter-play already, just stay out of his range. Therefore, his Q also needs counter-play and skill required to make it effective. To this I proposed making the effectiveness of his Q dramatically increase depending on how close to the center you can land it, much like Xerath’s W. If the animation is slowed down, it should be possible for opponents to react and reduce his ability to CC them. Another possible idea would be that only in the center ring is any CC applied, much like Aatrox’s Q. · A good Garen would hypothetically be able to hit his center frequently and use the brief window of a slowed enemy to get off his judgment. In team fights, he could jump in, ultimate, then use his E for max damage. · However, his problem of being ability dependent would still be there. Without cooldowns up, Garen is pretty much useless as a result of his slow AA animation and generally low AD/AS builds. To put it simply, his DPS drops significantly once he has used the above stated combo. To this I propose switching up how Garen’s E works. Instead of activating it and having the 3 second window where you wait for it to go on cooldown, raise the cooldown by a little, but put the ability on cooldown as soon as you activate it. For example, Judgment has a cooldown of 9 seconds at max rank. Ignoring CDR, this means you have 12 seconds between activation and reactivation. 3 of those seconds are spent spinning, true, which makes the cooldown match up at 9 seconds. But the fact is that there is 12 seconds between when you press E and when you can press it again. By raising that 9 second cooldown by 1 second but making it go on cooldown as soon as you activate it, that 12 second difference between when you press the button and can press it again is reduced to 7, making him a much more persistent damage threat. At max CDR, this would put his E on a 4.2 second cooldown. If that feels too low, the cooldown can be increased to be 11 at max rank, but still be put on cooldown at activation. A 4 or 5 second spell that can be stopped without too much trouble by opponents is definitely not too strong. · His ultimate will still put it on cooldown, but put it on full cooldown as opposed to however long it would be at the end of judgment. As an example, after the full 3 second spinning duration without activating his ultimate, it would hypothetically be on a 7 second cooldown instead of 10. Activating the ultimate would put it back on a 10 second cooldown, providing the player with a small element of choice. · This mechanic, an ability that works as it is going on cooldown, is very common within the game and it by no means overpowered. In fact, Garen’s W works in the same way. It goes on cooldown the moment you press w, and the damage/cc reduction works even though the cooldown has started. In reality, instead of the 20 second cooldown at max ranks that is listed, there is a 14 second window between when his damage and cc reduction stops to when you can reactivate it. With maximum CDR, this can be reduced to only 6 seconds (20 seconds reduced by 40% CDR is a 12 second cooldown, and taking 6 seconds away from that for the duration of the spell itself leaves you with a 6 second window between the end of the effect and chance to reactivate it). Other champions with this feature in their kits include Sona, Singed, Alistar, and basically any champion with an ability that grants them a brief steroid. As the main damage spell of a champion who relies almost entirely on his spells to deal damage, it is not overpowered to put it on a modest cooldown and still deal decent damage. · There is a difference between initiation and stickiness, and these changes highlight that to ensure Garen is possible to counter and keep off of champions on your team. To clarify, Initiation is the ability to get within range to do damage, and stickiness is the ability to stay in that range. To illustrate the difference, look at Darius. Once he is in range of a champion, he can slow them frequently and pull them back if they move away a small distance. Once he is in range, flash or an escape has to be used to get him back out of range, or he will stick with you and deal tons of damage. This all means he can be a sticky champion, aka he can keep you within range to deal damage once he gets there. However, he lacks good initiation, meaning it is hard for him to get in range to slow and pull enemy champions. This provides counter play to the champion and keeps his generally high damage in line. By only giving his Q the ability to initiate, Garen still has an issue with sticking to his targets, making it possible to use an escape or peel him off and make him easy to kite once again. As an example, if Janna uses her tornado on Garen after he has landed his Q, he’s back to square one in terms of not being able to deal damage. To clarify, the slow would last, hypothetically, 1.5 seconds. After those 1.5 seconds, Garen would still have the same weakness of sticking to targets he has now. For this reason, it is not a massive buff. If anything, it’s simply an update to an antiquated kit. · As an aside, part of the reason that I believe Garen needs this update is because of how prominently he is featured in LoL promotions and art pieces. He’s everywhere because he is a stereotypical Paladin-esque character and fans used to fantasy games with recognize his character type and understand what is in league. He represents, to a certain extent, the connection between LoL and other MMo’s and famous PC games like Warcraft. As such, it is beneficial to the game to have one of its core champion archetypes be well-balanced and represented. Players who join the game because they’re attracted to playing with this character type may be discouraged because of how weak he is at higher levels. · Garen’s simplicity in play is one of his strong points, but also one of his weaknesses. By implementing unique ways that a character’s kit can interact with itself, i.e yasuo’s dash generating more flow or Ezreal’s mystic shot reducing the cooldown of his other spells, Riot can give conditional and variable strengths to champions without increasing numbers and reward the player for playing well. Rewarding good play, in this hypothetical case landing Garen’s new Q in the center, Riot can make the champion so much more rewarding to play at all levels, give the champion strengths that each ability individually cannot grant, and increase their popularity. Simple champions are easier to play but generally lack the ability to make high level plays. If any such champions are strong, it’s normally because of high numbers, which tends to make overpowered, Un-fun champions to play as or against. Simply put, the more a player can do with a champion through skill alone, the more fun they can be. Lee sin, Azir, Zed, and other high skill-cap champions are good examples of this effect. Playing this champions well makes them very strong, playing them poorly leaves them average at best. Getting off a lee sin insec kick takes skill and timing, making it incredibly satisfying and rewarding as a result; hitting a targeted Q like garen’s current one generally isn’t. Final thoughts. Garen’s strengths as a champion are his high early damage, simplicity of play, high tankiness later in the game and snowballing potential. His weaknesses are basically that he is easily kited, lacks the ability to help his teammates deal damage through CC or distraction, and has high cooldown gameplay with little in the way of autoattack damage. Simply put, he’s got high raw numbers both offensively and defensively, but his inability to get in range and stay in range makes him offensively weak later and reduces him to a simple damage sponge unless you go for a nearly full damage build. Since any champion can fulfill the role of damage sponge with the right items and garen’s kit provides little skill or satisfaction with the exception of his ultimate (an ability that works against the interests of your role later in the game), there is simply no reason to play Garen. Too many champions can do what he does but better, PLUS add in offensive power through either CC or decent damage (Maokai comes to mind). By hopefully shoring up some of his weaknesses like lack of initiation and almost zero CC while retaining most of them, like his stickiness and ability to be kited, as well as readjusting his kit to make more sense thematically, Garen can become a more satisfying, cohesively designed, and stronger champion.